John Gates: Salary Coach and Talent Acquisition Leader | Amy Adler's "How I Hire"

Amy Adler’s “How I Hire” Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: Hi everybody and welcome back to another episode of Amy Adler’s “How I Hire.” My name is Amy Adler of Five Strengths Career Transition Experts. I write resumes and develop career portfolios for executives and their teams and in this podcast. I am very interested to know kind of what's in the “black box” about hiring methods on the talent acquisition side and the hiring executive side and I invite guests to talk about the way they engage in hiring processes. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: Today, I have the incredible honor of having Mr. John Gates with us. John is a talent acquisition industry veteran. I am told that he has seen the processes go through for more than 75,000 offers. And I know that he does Consulting and has worked in this industry a long time and is also a coach in compensation. So, John, welcome, and thank you so much for joining me. I have told you many times how glad I am that our paths crossed, however serendipitously, and I am so proud to have you here in and honestly to call you friend, so please thank you for joining us here, and please do tell us a little bit about yourself in your own words. John Gates: Thank you so much I appreciate the invitation to be here and maybe shed a little light on some of the mysteries of recruiting. I know when you're a job seeker. It's tough to know what goes on behind the scenes and I appreciate everything that you do in prepping candidates to be successful. It helps me on my end as well. So my name is John Gates. I run two different businesses right now. But before I launched these businesses, I was the head of talent acquisition and recruiting for multiple Fortune 500 companies. I oversaw Global teams of Recruiters in those roles and start it off just after college recruiting for a temporary agency and work my way into corporate recruiting from there. So I've been doing corporate recruiting for nearly 30 years and then Consulting for years after that. John Gates: by my cross my preference I think is to work on the process issues of recruiting so I get really frustrated when I see things that are bad candidate experiences and I don't like to see candidates tripping all over themselves making mistakes. It makes me feel bad. Most people I think. Are amateur candidates and that's the way it should be? you're only going to change jobs a few times in your lifetime, hopefully. So if you're really good at applying and you're really good at interviewing and you're really good at negotiating and really get it writing your resume. That means you've changed jobs, maybe a little too much and you practice right? So I just want to say it's perfectly normal to feel like you're a beginner at all this stuff. John Gates: And to find somebody like Amy to help you with your resume or other people that are good at interviewing to coach you along the way that's perfectly normal to feel that way. So the two businesses that I started One is called recruiting Transformations. And that's where I help companies to fix their broken recruiting process. So if it's taking too long to fill positions or the recruiting team needs some additional help. The process is messed up in some way companies hire me to go and untangle that the knot. And make things faster better cleaner less expensive for everyone involved. So I do that on a full-time basis as a consultant for companies. A couple of years ago. I started another business called salary coach. John Gates: Which is an interesting business and to my knowledge is nobody else doing anything like this that I helped particularly salaried candidates to negotiate the best possible pay package that they could get mentioned already people. are inexperienced with talking about money? In the recruiting process. They don't know how to answer the questions even in the application. What's your salary requirement? Sometimes your blood runs cold? Wondering it what number you should put in that box People freak out a little bit sometimes on the inside and think if I put something that's too low. I just took money out of my own pocket and if I put something that's in too high. I'm not going to get that phone call. So the stress goes up and I help candidates to know exactly how to navigate all those touch points. So they don't. 00:05:00 John Gates: Lowball themselves in the process have come out of it with the best offer. They can get without putting stuff at risk. So that's a little about me and what I'm doing. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: I appreciate your giving us some background and insight into your expertise and I think you're right. I think that is maybe the scariest part of the job search process seconded. Maybe only by the tell me about yourself question that inevitably shows up in resume writing and in the interview, but helping people figure out where they fit and what is going to amplify their candidacy sustain their candidacy and secure that opportunity at the level that they should be compensated at I think is crucial. So the world needs you and… John Gates: Yeah. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: I trust what you do and I have seen it in action and I believe in the value of knowing Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: Having a bit of an edge based on somebody's expertise somebody with the window that you have somebody who can genuinely say, this is how I hire this is what I do as I'll tell an acquisition professional to lead teams to make these kinds of decisions, and I know that we've talked about you've seen some pretty amazing successes and some pretty I don't want to say failures. That's not really fair but opportunities that we're not taking we're job Seekers Left something on the table that they could have added to their pay package and done better. John Gates: Yeah. I would say in my career you mentioned already. I've seen 75,000 offers. It might lifetime. So a lot of those I personally handled but mostly I was overseeing offers and overseeing recruiters and teaching them how to negotiate against candidates. So for recruiter got stuck or there was a negotiation underway. I would have to weigh in on that and Coach the recruiter on how to Navigate through that and close the deal with the candidate and the hiring manager together. So. There are a lot of mistakes that candidates make a lot of mistakes that companies make and so one of the things I do is I try to help people see the landmine before they step on it. Don't approach the negotiation in this way. I try to bring people into a collaboration discussion instead of John Gates: Issuing ultimatums I think that's generally negotiating mistake. I've seen a lot of advice on LinkedIn that I don't think is very good advice and all give you some examples John Gates: very recently. I saw somebody go in there and say I demand this level of pay so they might say I need three hundred thousand dollars or not interested in talking to you. And from their perspective was like this is a good strategy because if they talk to me, then I know that they can meet my pay requirement and everything is the reason why it's not a good strategy is until you've talked to something. They don't know that you're worth $300, dollars and it's through the course of talking to people in interviewing with them that you persuade them that you're worth more. And so if you haven't made the case for yourself yet. It's very easy. You have no leverage early on in that conversation make John Gates: demands now if things go very well and they say yes to your demand. It's still a mistake. Because you could have made more probably. if they say yes to 300,000 and then continue the conversation. It's because That falls within their range of possibilities somewhere somehow. What if they were willing to offer you 325 you just told them they only have to offer you 300 and so you just lowballed yourself by mistake, so I think coming at things like in a combative way and an ultimatum issuing sort of way. Is generally a mistake but here's the secret. I think most people perceive negotiation. John Gates: To be an adversarial combative sort of process. And so they don't think that it can be anything else. That's why a lot of people shy away from negotiating because they don't like combative. Situations they don't like conflict. So they're going to avoid it. The risk is too high. So they don't want to get into that sort of. combative environment and analogy that I have sometimes I think people feel like negotiation is similar to a gladiator event where you have to strap on your armor and March into an arena and cross swords with someone. And it's a duel to the death. It's me against you. 00:10:00 John Gates: really you both want the same thing you both want a recruiter wants to close out a position that they've been working on for a while hiring manager wants to fill a vacancy and you want to accept the offer so I think a key learning here is learn how to approach it like a collaboration. John Gates: Help them to engage with them I guess. in a conversation Ask them for their ideas on how certain gaps could be closed instead of saying this is what I want saying. Here's what I'm seeing. What can be done. And these are all just General tips and stuff like that. But hopefully some of your audience can pick up some of what I'm laying down and maybe benefit a little bit but the point here is that negotiation does not have to be a dual to the death. It can be a more comfortable conversation. That's collaborative. and whoops Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: You're good. John Gates: I like this one off. I'm sitting here in a conference room with an automated. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: You're good. John Gates: Light switch and if I sit here like a bump on a log too long it thinks there's nobody in here. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: I understand. John Gates: So back to what I was saying though, I think. A lot of people are a little bit worried that they're gonna burn up relationships on the way in they're going to damage a relationship by being combative. And a lot of people do exactly that. I've seen deals Fall Apart. many times Not as a negotiation coach. is my clients usually aren't making this mistake, but as a recruiting leader and as a recruiter. I've seen candidates. John Gates: Created a whole new personality for themselves when it comes time to. Advocate for money, and people are told you got to stand up for yourself. You've got to advocate for yourself because nobody else is going to do that. And if you combine that with this idea that negotiation should be combative. John Gates: Then sometimes they put on this mantle of aggression. That's just not them. And the recruiter or the hiring manager feels that it's like wow. This isn't the person that we saw in the interview process. What have they been hiding from me? I'm not sure. I want to hire this person anymore. And when a hiring manager turns around and changes their mind now the recruiter has to share the bad news with the candidate. It's like and that happens. Sometimes this is how a deal can fall apart and usually you won't get the straight Scoop from the recruiter. They won't say you became a raving lunatic in the offer process. So we decided we didn't like that very much. They're just going to say what? We've decided to withdraw our offer we're going to pursue another candidate that came along that fits the requirement just a little bit better than you. John Gates: And that's what you'll hear. So it might be actually interesting to talk about things like why candidates don't get feedback. Because I think that's something that candidates wonder about a lot and I have a lot of experience in that do you think that they might be interested? Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: Absolutely. so I called it the Black Box because job Seekers see the application process as adversarial or they see it as late. they say I'll take 300 and that's going to be my point of entry and that's kind of like going to the grocery store you don't expect to negotiate over the cost of a kind of soup right but 00:15:00 John Gates: Yes. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: One thing that struck me in that and I think about fear a lot. I wrote a whole book about job search and fear. But this seems to be a function of fear that they want to control the entire situation or they go in with a whole new personality because they're told to be aggressive. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: And then they might get rejected because they behave so strangely, but they never come in at the middle. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: we'll get to the middle part later because I think that's where people want to hear. what am I supposed to do? But this idea that they get rejected and they don't know whether it's because they throw down the gauntlet of the beginning or came in with, both hands, with swords or whatever. at some point, they're going to get a rejection and they're going to have no idea whether it's at the negotiation stage or earlier and as a resume writer and career coach. I'm always saying you're never going to know and I'm going to go on a limb and speculate that it has something to do with liability, but it might be something it might be there were a thousand applicants and we can't get back to everybody. everybody has an idea. Nobody really knows what John Gates: Yes, so there are lots of points where you can get rejected and I think this would be a good conversation to have on your podcast because this is an expectation and a hope that all candidates want and they say why is it so difficult for me to get feedback? So I understand why I was declined or why I was rejected. I'm going to try to explain why that doesn't mean that it's going to be happy answer. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: and for example, we're not holding you to every possible reason. John Gates: but I can give you the audience though one tip that would improve the chances of actually getting feedback. and it might work some of the time. So it's better than nothing at all. And so when you apply and you get a rejection after applying before you even talk to somebody. Even if you meet all the qualifications you're looking at a job description and it's like there are 10 qualifications and you meet a hundred percent of them. And it's like I'm perfect for this job. I don't understand why I was just declined and I didn't even get to talk to something. All right, so there could be a few explanations for this one there was an internal applicant that came around at the last minute. John Gates: And so a lot of companies want to prioritize internal people over external and if you worked at a company you were applying internally you would probably hope for that you would get some preference over an external person. For a nice opportunity internally, so that does happen. I think most often though this happens because there's a lot of good qualified applicants and they have to make a cut somewhere. John Gates: if you fast or put yourself in the role of the recruiter put yourself in the iters chair for a moment. The average corporate recruiter has 25 or 30 open positions that they're managing at any given point in time. So if they have 40 hours in a week, and they have 30 positions they have. An hour or so to work on every one of those. Or they're not going to touch something for a week. And if they do that then they get yelled at so they have very limited time. I think that's what I'm trying to say. Here's recruiters are crunched for time all the time. So if you have 200 applicants for a position. And you look at all 200 and out of those 20 of them look really good on paper. You only have time to do a phone interview with maybe five or six of those. John Gates: So you're still making another cut? somewhere and it might be these six have slightly better experience or maybe they work for more desirable companies that are slightly better or it could be that they did something in the compensation. usually when you're applying. You have a chance they'll ask you. What's your salary requirement? A lot of times people will put open or negotiable in that box. Now if you're crunched for time and you have 20 people that look good on paper half of them have given you a number. And you can say these ones I know are falling in the range that I have to work with. These ones didn't really answer the question. And you have to decide I schedule am I going to call them and I spent 15 or 20 or 30 minutes on the phone with them only to discover their way outside. 00:20:00 John Gates: That's why people who put open or negotiable in that situation can sometimes fall below the line So I think it's a better move actually to put something that's kind of on the lower side of… Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: right John Gates: what you would consider in that box. Just so you can get the phone call. And then you have time an opportunity during that phone call while you're talking to a human being to reframe that number into a range of some One opportunity to do that I coach people on it precisely. how to make that shift. but there are other reasons so it could be that there's something in your resume. That's an unlisted requirement. It's wrong to think that all the requirements are actually listed. It might be that the hiring manager has a short list of pet peeves. The recruiter knows it, but they're not going to put them in the posting. John Gates: and it might be an example could be I've known three people who've worked for company and I don't like any one of them. So don't give me anybody that works at company You're not going to put that in an advertisement. You're not going to say if you work a company a don't bother applying. John Gates: It might be that the person's looking for a potential successor. And so they are looking for a certain career trajectory or something like that. So they could be a viable successor because they're going to retire in a couple of years and maybe you're perfectly fit for the job because of the way your work history stocks up. They don't see you that way and there's a lot of things that can happen in the application stage. So then you get into interviews and this is where things really like people apply for a hundred jobs a week and they get a lot of clients the most hurtful. No feedback is after you've interviewed and then you get an email from any saying Thanks, but no thanks. We're moving on with other candidates. You really want an explanation then. John Gates: And it's hard. Sometimes the recruiter will call you and they'll say we've decided to move forward with other candidates, but here's why they won't give you feedback. there are two reasons one is the legal team says don't give feedback because if you say something that's taken wrong. They could assume that what you said means you're too old. your skin is the wrong color. You're the wrong gender. These are all illegal reasons to decline somebody and if somebody wants to pick a legal fight with you, they'll take information that you gave and use it in a lawsuit against you. so here's the real bottom line of why you're not getting feedback as a candidate. There's no upside to the organization and giving it to you. John Gates: You think what's the right thing to do? If a company gives feedback to candidates. That message will somehow get out there and it will encourage people to apply and participate. John Gates: The truth is that doesn't really happen actually that the benefit of giving feedback never really comes back to a company, but the risk of giving feedback is always there. Here's the other downside to the recruiter when they give you feedback. you didn't get the job because of this or this. John Gates: The natural inclination of the candidate is to disagree and to argue and to try to relitigate the decision. They want to change the outcome. They want to say I don't know why they got that. I don't have experience in that area. Because I worked here and I did these projects and you just start arguing with the recruiter. That you're bringing conflict into an already uncomfortable thing a recruiter has to do the worst thing they have to do in a job is tell people they did get the job. And let somebody down they don't want to do that. So now they have to listen to the argument. There's no way they're going to go back to their hiring manager and relitigate the decision most of the time. Now if they do bring feedback. Might be before the decision was made. 00:25:00 John Gates: And that's why they're bringing feedback to seek additional input from you. so these are the reasons why you're not getting feedback. There's no upside to the recruiter or the organization to give it there's only risk and there's a big risk like emotional safety risk for the recruiter. There's legal risk for the organization and in some cases recruiters have been fired because they gave feedback That Was Then misconstrued or misunderstood and then somebody ends up posting something on Reddit or glass door or who knows what and a recruiter gets fired for sharing. feedback so here's the tip if you want feedback. As you're building a relationship with the recruiter you're going through the phone screen. You're talking to them. John Gates: You say and You can say I'm excited about interviewing. I have a favor to ask though. If I accept the interview and come in. would it be okay if we could schedule at the same time a five or 10 minute debrief meeting after the interview so that I can hear what they thought and I promise not to hold you to it. if you tell me that I just wasn't a fit and you tell me why that's okay. I promise to take it a grown-up. I won't argue. I just want to understand and so you have to create this. offer of emotional safety for the recruiter to share the feedback with you and then you have to keep your promise. John Gates: a lot of recruiters have heard that stuff before and then they share the feedback and instead of That the natural tendency of the candidate is to disagree with the decision they misunderstood me they misunderstood my qualifications. And so it turns into an argument. So you have to just say I really appreciate you sharing that feedback with me. Thank you. That's going to help my job search going forward and drop it. And if more candidates did that there would be a whole lot more feedback being shared. but I'm telling you. they don't be able and Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: I don't think I've ever heard that advice anywhere else. And I am confident that our listeners are going to take that to heart and what it does. Is sets up the conversation as asking for permission if the recruiter says no, I can't then there's no love lost and the relationship stays intact and nobody feels harmed. Maybe the candidate isn't getting what they're looking for in that future conversation, but the interview will still happen and the conversation about Feedback is there's a lid on it and there's no questioning as to whether that will take place. So the candidate goes in if the recruiter says no, I don't know if that's a typical thing. But if the recruiter says no Then the Canada goes in knowing. That the feedback won't be there and they're not disappointed when it's not. John Gates: Yeah. Yeah, I've been in organizations where it was absolutely forbidden to give feedback. Because of the legal issues or the strength of the legal team in an organization and their political influence. And so when I'm in that situation, I preempt the request by saying. We'd like to interview you. I just want to let ahead of time that unfortunately, it's our policy not share feedback. So at the end of it it's going to be a couple of different possibilities I'm going to say It looks like you're the leading candidate. Let's move toward an offer or it's going to be I'm really grateful that you spent time with us. But unfortunately, it's not a match from our end and those are the two things that are going to happen in if you're okay with that then we can proceed. John Gates: So I'm very transparent with people up front and I said that expectation. in those kind of environments those kind of cultures. but sometimes you can get the feedback but here's a little negotiating tip and that is when somebody wants something from you. That's the time to ask for something in return. So the wrong time to ask for feedback, is it the end of the process after you've been declined when you're being declined? You don't have any leverage to get feedback at that point or even to ask for it. they're no longer interested in you. So why should they say? Yes. if they invite you to interview 00:30:00 John Gates: They want you to say yes, they want you to it means that you're passing forward and you're going they've selected you they want to talk to you. they want to schedule you. They want something from you and you can say I'm excited to interview with you. I've got one small favor to ask. Can we book that 10? minutes a couple of days after the interview would like to get some feedback and understand which way it's going and that also helps to slow down this ghosting process that happens and things like so you get that calendared while they're calendaring the interview their calendaring that as so just a Bit of advice when people want something from you, that's an opportunity. You have leverage right then to get something else in return even if it's small. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: I love hearing that can I? I don't know if you intended this and you please tell me if I'm not thinking about this the right way. When you ask for feedback after the fact after you've been declined after the company has chosen to go in another Direction. It's too late and it might feel very satisfying to put closure on it that way but in the process of job search coaching or career coaching. It is entirely too late to hear what went wrong after things went wrong wrong. John Gates: Yeah. You can always ask what your chances of getting meaningful feedback or not good and quite often the real feedback is a little different than what you might get. So the reasons why people get declined sometimes are super meaningful and relevant. It's like a big chunk of this job is bringing new products to Market and wheat probed her experience of bringing new products to Market and we just didn't come away confident that she would be able to get this ball across. The Finish Line. I mean that's legitimate feedback. but What if they came across in a certain way? came across as arrogant. John Gates: if I'm in the recruiter given that feedback, how can I tell a candidate? you came across this arrogant and it's like what do you mean I came across as arrogant when they asked this question. This is the way you answered it. The tone was such that you just inviting a fight. It's insulting kind of to share a kind of information and it could even be a petty thing like when I was interviewing this person, they had a piece of salad stuck on their teeth. John Gates: I have seen hiring managers in Virtual interviews like this say John Gates: they were wearing glasses like I am now and maybe they have multiple, screens or something like this. You're in an interview. And something will pop up on the screen and they can see the reflection in the glasses. And they assume that you're not paying attention to the interview. John Gates: If they see stuff like that happening. They'll think that you're trying to multitask during the interview. I've seen many candidates declined because there was a perception. From the hiring manager that they weren't completely focused on the interview. They weren't valuing the interviewer's time. is that legit or not? I don't know. but those kind of things come up from time to time people get declined based on some sometimes the smallest. things you could even be a personality connection like I didn't the person was too stoic or they were to Lively or they reminded me of my ex-girlfriend or if there could be subtle mannerisms. John Gates: That just rub somebody the wrong way and it sounds completely unfair but sometimes by the time those decisions are made at candidates are stacked up against each other. it's difficult to undo the decision that's been made in a decision Maker's head. 00:35:00 John Gates: As a recruiter though, I have to challenge things that I think are on Fair. and I do and I think most people that are in my position do but if there's this subtle dig against one candidate that brings them down below somebody else that just did slightly better or the Rapport was slightly stronger or something like that. John Gates: it can Sway and There's no real silver metal. in recruiting like you win the gold or you don't win at all. so close doesn't really matter. You have to be the winner. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: I get that and I think that that is profoundly unsatisfying for the person who was the runner up and they don't know this. But I want to turn around for a second. And say that that's probably true from the corporate recruiter site too. John Gates: Yeah. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: Their obligation is to the company and not that record. I mean, I know lots of recruiters. I have very good friends who are recruiters and I get to hear their insights and I'm very grateful for that. But corporate recruiters are obligated to the company not to any particular candidate and told they are in that process. And again, I'm looking at it from The Outsiders perspective. So they want to win that game too. The recruiters want to win that game on behalf of the team for whom they're recruiting and I think it would be disingenuous to think that as a candidate that. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: You're more important at that stage. It's possible to be part of the process. but the company is going to be John Gates: Yes. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: preeminent John Gates: Yes, good recruiters are very influential and they're trusted so there are trusted voice but I'll say this to recruiters get attached to some candidates. all when I'm working on a position if I'm presenting three to five people to the manager. I tell them which ones I think are the leading candidates and then I listen to them. And I help manage her sometimes to avoid hiring mistakes. I think often hiring managers will overvalue technical competence. And they underestimate the power of behaviors things like that that I'm good at assessing. so for example, if you're hiring a person that knows the ins and outs of the technology and they're a super duper technology expert. John Gates: But they have a hard time getting along with their peers. They don't take Direction. from their boss they can't deliver on a deadline. These are the kind of things that are going to drive a hiring manager crazy over a period of time. If you ask any boss, What's their worst nightmare? It's dealing with a person who isn't living up to the expectations and the role and when somebody's not performing well in a job, it's usually not because they're technically competent. It's because of behavior problems. and so John Gates: that they're being political inside the group. they're causing problems on a project. They're not able to deliver on time and it's letting teammates down. these are the kind of things that I assess pretty deeply. That are hiring manager often just say they know the code. They know the tech they know. that John Gates: and even if it's a non-technical job if it's a recruiter. You can get completely focused on. they know how to assess candidates. They know how to Negotiate pay they know how to do all the technical things. John Gates: Yet. that same person who knows how to do everything might be a horrible fit for the rest of the team by browbeat the assistant, right? John Gates: might not adapt to processor procedures of a new company or who knows so Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: So I guess in Not to point a finger at my partner in crime here, but to trust the person who's done this 75,000 times. Is a good idea from the manager should do that. The hiring manager should do that and… 00:40:00 John Gates: yeah. Yes. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: the candidate should do that. And we often say in resume right here. We prepare people to get to the point where they're talking to folks like you and if it didn't happen it was for a reason and maybe it was a very good one and we try to help people feel better about it and move forward, but I am learning that there was a very good reason that was happening. In a way that was obscured to us. We can't tell what's been going on. But I am even more than I did before now going to trust those decisions. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: Because nobody wants to be in an organization in which they do not fit even if they are technically excellent. John Gates: Sometimes you get declined for good reasons and sometimes not so good reasons, but do you really want to be at a company? That isn't going to Value you or you don't fit into? I think most people have worked for a boss that they don't fit with or in an organization that they don't fit with got to pretend to be somebody that you're not in order to succeed. That is exhausting. John Gates: You don't want that believe me, but here's another interesting tip for the job Seekers out there. When you're talking to a corporate recruiter somebody in they are screening you and they call you back to say. Hey, we'd like to bring you into meet our hiring team. The hiring manager wants to talk to you or something like that. Good thing to do is ask them for advice. John Gates: So you can say I'm excited about meeting them. Can I get your advice for a second? It looks like I'm going to be meeting with these three people What subjects would you avoid? what would you emphasize during this interview? I just want to make sure that I put my best foot forward. And so if you wouldn't mind would you coach me a little bit and prepare me to meet with these people? And the recruiter is going to have a lot of insight information about what their personalities are what they're likely to ask about. Don't spend too much time. Like I mentioned before recruiters are very time crunched people. but John Gates: ask for just a couple of minutes of coaching and advice people like it when you ask for their advice. and so John Gates: I think that that's a very effective way whenever candidates ask me. I go into transparency mode. I want to advocate all of a sudden. And as soon as I started advising somebody. it also puts me in a position now where I kind of want to advocate for them behind the scenes because they've got my advice now. I kind of want to see them succeed. It's a little bit of a psychological trick that candidates can bring into. the play and it helps to bring the recruiter over to their side of the table. Now you You're asking Once they're helping you they're less opposed to you. John Gates: That makes any sense. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: Yeah, absolutely the psychology of the relationship demands that somebody be on the candidate side. At some stage in the process and it sounds like inviting that early in a very gentle and benign kind of way about the culture. How do I dress if it's a particular? Way of presenting oneself. John Gates: Yep. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: All those kinds of questions. The recruiter is going to have that Insider information and Making a friend is always better than making an enemy at that stage. John Gates: Yeah, we talked a little bit into a collaborative mode this is the very first step to bringing the recruiter into your camp. And creating a collaborative partnership. So you're asking for advice you're listening now, they're collaborating with you on having a good interview experience and you can say I just want to make sure that they get all the information that they're really looking for to make a good hiring decision here you're starting to Say things like I care about them making a good hiring decision here. on your side you're on my side or on the same side. 00:45:00 John Gates: And when you start to talk, then that compensation it can have a more collaborative tone when you get down to the offer, you're collaborating on an offer package that's going to work for all parties. And it sets the right tone. So if you forget to do that, there's still other ways, but I think that's a very interesting thing to try and so maybe some of your audience would experiment with that and see how it works for them. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: indeed and I think the notion of engaging the recruiter as coach is Something that we wouldn't expect. I think often candidates expect the recruiter to be their coach. I think we've elaborated today that at some points in the conversation. It makes sense at some point as after the whole thing is nailed down. It makes no sense at all. So with that in mind, could we possibly talk about your negotiation coaching practice? Negotiation around compensation. what would you say about that here? John Gates: Good question and I love this topic. Thank you for giving me the chance. I'm super passionate about this because I think most people leave money on the table. Sometimes it's a lot of money. and you mentioned early on that people are often driven by fear, and this is the situation here like People are conservative Early in the process because they're afraid about losing a phone call. They're afraid about invited to interview. They don't want to be screened out early on so they take it conservative approach. to negotiating and then at the end the last thing you want to do is screw up the offer John Gates: They've extended an offer to you and if you can imagine this you're all excited you want to join the company you like the job your family is depending upon you Landing this particularly if you're unemployed and in this economy. Maybe there's lots more of unemployment ahead of you eviction or who knows what you're staring down the barrel of really bad things if you can't get a salary going. Soon so there's all the stakes are incredibly High. John Gates: Because the stakes are so high you're really tempted to take whatever they offer. And not push back very much. So I think people get shoved into this conservative Corner this overly cautious. Approach to things and I think that's natural to do. So what I try to do is I help people to know. how to talk about pay it every single step so how to Answer the salary requirements question when they're applying so that the phone will ring and then when the phone rings and they ask you again, how much money do you need to make Amy in order to make this work? the truth is you have an interviewed yet and you really don't know the full scope of the job or its demands so it's too early to answer that question. John Gates: But your pressure to answer anyway, because if you screw it up. You're not going to get invited to interview. And so I help people to know how to navigate that conversation effectively. And then when they're getting ready to interview one important thing you have to do is show how valuable you have to become the preferred candidate? But not just that. You have to show them how much money you're going to make them how much money you're going to save them? Or how you make their nightmares go away or something like that, people hire people often based on emotions. John Gates: the hiring manager, they're filling the vacancy for a reason. It's because they have a problem. They need to solve. So I tried to teach people how to identify those problems and then how to position themselves as a solution to those problems. Most candidates don't do this. They just go in and they interview and they just answer the interview questions. 00:50:00 John Gates: Instead of identifying the problems and becoming the solution to those problems. if you can be the solution to their fear and what's keeping them awake at night, you're going to give them a better night's sleep if they hire you instead of somebody else. You're going to have a much better chance of being. Not just the selected candidate, but you're going to be perceived as high value. So then And I think one of the worst things you can do when an offer is accept right on the spot. John Gates: And I'll say this will make sense when I explain. But the most leverage that you ever have. Tire process Is between when they offer you the job. and when you accept because now they want you they've picked you they want you to say away. And then you want something else you just gave up all your leverage is tied up in giving them a yes. John Gates: so you can make your contingent upon them giving you a couple of things. So at all resist the temptation to say, yes, I'm so excited even if you love the offer. You should Take a deep breath and see if there's anything else. John Gates: This is the time and you have to ask for it in a certain way depending on the personalities involved what kind of coaching people I want to know all about the people that they met. John Gates: Who there are they talking to HR about the numbers or are they talking to the hiring manager? Is that somebody reports to the CEO or is it far down in the organization? Are there 20 other people that are doing the same job as you or is there only one of you in the organization? The answer to that gave a lot of Clues to how flexible the salary might be. Or are they going to have to address a gap with a signing bonus or some other thing? So there's a long list of things you can ask for, so you have to get clear on So what you really want is to work from home two days a week. And you haven't even discussed that with anybody the time to ask for that is right here. John Gates: Once they've made the offer and before you accept because if you wait until after you've said yes. They've got no reason to give that to you now. so hopefully that's a couple of little golden nuggets for your audience. But I help people to be emotionally comfortable through the process and prep them for all these conversations. And there's a couple of ways that I actually coach people. So one is the salary coach Academy. I've said this up to be very inexpensive way of getting a lot of information about how to talk about pay at every single step. So this is not me coaching, but it is me teaching. so I've got 30 or 40 video lessons in the salary coach Academy that talk about all these things. John Gates: And you can watch a five minute video and learn about how to talk about pay in the phone screen stuff or learn how to structure your counter offer and things like this. that's very inexpensive compared to the coaching you with every step. That's a super time intensive process for me. It's hours and hours. Probably a working with you through all the steps. So that's more expensive and I want to make sure that if I'm working with you at that level. The money that you're spending on that coaching is more than covered by what you're going to make up. you're going to recover that on the back end with a higher salary or a big signing bonus or something like that. Want to make sure there's the potential for that. John Gates: To agree that you're a good fit for that kind of coaching experience. But I've had more and more people just coming to me at the offer stage. This is kind of interesting. this exploded over the last couple of months. People not wanting the full coaching experience, but instead calling me or messaging me and saying John I've heard about I just got an offer. Is there any way that you can take a look at it and just coach me briefly on how I could? Explore if it could be better. I think you give up a lot of value I can do that usually two or three hours of back and forth us talking on the zoom me looking at your offer helping you worship the things. but I've got that price much lower than 00:55:00 John Gates: coaching because it only takes a couple hours of doing it. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: So ideally where when should people engage you when they're in the process of having their resume done before they even you tell me. John Gates: Yeah, I think as early as possible in the process is ideal because you can paint yourself into a corner in the phone screen without knowing that. You just done that. you can go through the interview process and… Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: and John Gates: just answer the questions and you might say yourself up for a lowball offer. And sometimes when people come at the offer stage. They say John help me. I just got a lowball offer. How can I fix it? I can help them fix it a little bit. But it's kind of like. They just offered you a Volkswagen Beetle. And you want a Mercedes? at that point I can help you to maybe paint the beetle a different color, but I'm probably not going to get your Mercedes but If I had been with you from the beginning I can help you position for the Mercedes. That makes sense. So it's ideal to get in early. One progression might be to join the academy. And then if you don't find everything you need there and you need some time with me you can upgrade. John Gates: To time with me. So that's another path and sometimes people do that. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: I'm going to advocate for either or both Pathways that candidates work with you early and intensively and at whatever level they are. Most comfortable I'll say this again, when we first met we met because you reached out and I don't always consider those reach out because I don't know the source. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: You shared with me a snippet of. what you do and I was thrilled I've never met anybody. Who does what you do as you said it's a rare thing. John Gates: I think it's Unique I don't know that there's anybody else doing it and if they are they're approaching it probably as an adversarial. Coaching they're teaching you how to stand up for yourself and demand what you're worth. I don't do that because I think it's a mistake. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: with that and your demeanor I think is emblematic of the way you engage in these kinds of conversations. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: And I have enjoyed every conversation that we have had and I've seen your work in action and I am a believer and I will continue to recommend that the people that I work with. Talk to you and I'm going to start now that I know I'm going to invite them to speak to you early. They are. John Gates: I think that's yeah. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: amazing people deserve Amazing compensation for the amazing work they do. John Gates: Yeah, there's a lot of coaches out there and a lot of coaching and I think one of the things that I offer is a straight line to actual value like you're gonna spend money on this but you're going to recoup a lot more at the Finish Line. At least. That's the goal. I can't ever guarantee that somebody will get a lot more money. But what I can do is I think you're gonna maximize the offer that they would give Now sometimes companies put all their cards on the table and they offer what they offer and that's the best offer. But there's a safe way of exploring whether that is the best offer. you might go through that process and discover. what I think we got their best offer. And then you can at least go away sleeping at night knowing that you just didn't leave $70,000 on the table. I've John Gates: I've been on the other side of that. Not too long ago. It was negotiating on behalf of a company and was interviewing a senior director level person she worked in another industry and had a big pile of invested stock. and had a whole bunch of bonus that she was going to leave on the table. If she said yes the company that I was representing at the time did not have stock. So it was all cash in the deal. 01:00:00 John Gates: and to make her whole on all that was going to be Memory serves it was 120 hundred and thirty thousand dollars. that we would have to add into the package what the candidate didn't know is that there was a $60,000 cap what we could do before we went to a compensation committee, which was really political. So it was possible you just had to have the right political sponsorship to go get more than 60,000. So my task as the recruiter in that situation was to see if I could close this person below 60,000. I could come up with the way of getting her to accept this and be happy with excited about so I worked her through that process. knowing that if we had to John Gates: the hiring manager was ready to go champion this. But anytime you go up the ladder like that. There's a chance somebody well above you would say this is expensive. Are you sure we need to do this or this is expensive. Maybe you don't need this position after all. That's why hiring managers are reluctant unless they really need the person. this person was phenom. John Gates: Enal she probably could have To be made whole on everything, but she didn't. And I think she didn't because she wanted the opportunity. She was willing to leave a little bit on the table in order to take it and at the end of the day she felt like the offer was fair and reasonable. And so she said yes. John Gates: So assuming that the final offer was Of buyout she left 60 or 70,000 on the table. A couple of easy questions could have revealed that Just What's the risk are we all willing to engage in that risk? Yes. Let's do it. and there are story after Story. John Gates: Things like that, very often recruiters will get negotiating room approved so they don't have to go back and get a counter offer approved. how that usually looks is the hiring manager will say I want you to start at 120,000 you go up to 135 and if you have to go over 135 then come back to me. John Gates: here's a $10,000 signing bonus use it if necessary. So when a recruiter has all that stuff, they don't just come out with a 135 plus 10. John Gates: they'll start at 120 and they'll see what they have to do and very often. This is why I'm confident saying that 70 to 80% of people leave money on the table. John Gates: I know because I've been able to close below the cap. very often most of the time John Gates: so feeling out whether that money is there. how to go about asking for it safely without putting the offer at risk, that's what I offer and that's what I do. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: If the goal is to make everybody the hiring manager the recruiter the candidate all feel whole. And comfortable and… John Gates: Yes. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: happy why not make that set point at a slightly more optimal location and it sounds like that is your sweet spot is helping everybody feel like they've come out the right way. John Gates: Yeah. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: and feel well compensated for it. John Gates: Yes, and it's quite satisfying to go through this process and come out with extra money. Especially if it's salary that pays you month after month. You have a couple hours of process. Sometimes it's 10 minutes at the end of this process. It's 10 minutes of asking the right questions and putting something in the right words. Just had one close this week where there was. I don't know an hour of conversation prepping the person and then 01:05:00 John Gates: helping her to Wordsmith the request and kind of position the request getting the right leverage in there. she reported this week that the offer was accept the counteroffer that she proposed was accepted and it was 15,000 more than the initial offer and for her that was an hour of working with me and 10 minutes of working with company. Based on how I told her to approach it. And now she's got 15,000 a year extra coming in. just because she reached out that way I was able to do it. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: Then it seems incumbent on who knows somebody who's going through this process that they have to visit website of John Gates, salary coach extraordinaire. he's the person to listen to in this realm the only one of his kind from what we can tell I know him to be a stand-up guy really good what he does and I will be regularly mentioning your name among my client base. So I hope audiences out there are listening to the kind of value that you might be putting at risk. If you're not engaging someone like John and that you can really succeed. If you start early in the process build up that Goodwill that rapport with the recruiter and the hiring team and you're going to come out better on the other side. John Gates: Thank you so much Amy that is very kind words, and I appreciate knowing you as well. I have all the trust in the world for what you do for candidates helping them to Market themselves. And so I appreciate that as well. I know that it's not easy work. But you get great results and I appreciate you so much for just inviting me to be on the podcast and talk a little more about what I do. The process that I might go through or what it might be like to work with me or why they want to spend money on something like this. This opportunity is very special for me to be able to talk to people that might be listening to your podcast and I appreciate that so much. Thank you. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: Thank Again. Pleasure is entirely mine. I am so glad you are here on “How I Hire” podcast. I hope that our listeners will tune in and here this advice at least once more than once visit salary.coach and salarycoachacademy.com. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: I'm so glad you were here with me today on “How I Hire.” Mr. John Gates. Thank you again for joining us today. I am really glad that we had this chat. John Gates: Thank Honor is all mine, and I appreciate you. All right. Thanks. Amy L. Adler, MBA, CMRW: Right back to you.